Sunday, August 12, 2012

The ancient Irish most certainly knew the Frisians, but the OLB not even gives a hint.

[This post will be edited many times. When this message is gone, I'm done editing}



According to ancient Irish legends the Frisians invaded their country.

But why don't we read about them in the OLB?

Two possible reasons:

-1- The OLB is a true account of ancient European history, and the Fryans did not like to be nailed as pirates and hooligans, so any Irish connection was left out of the OLB. We all know, the Fryans were the most civilized people... according to the OLB that is.

-2- The OLB is a forgery, a hoax, a... whatever. The Irish legends are like an intricate maze, and no one busy creating a fake 'ancient' manuscript will be willing to burn his/her hands on that.

OK, so here are some of my posts from the "Historum" site about this topic.


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A bunch of tribes, all - more or less - related to the Frisii:

Menapii: a Germanic tribe living to the south west of the Frisii; spoke a language closely related to Frisian as we can see by the Lord's Prayer in the Menapian language in Overwijn's book about the OLB; probably moved to Ireland;

Chauci: a Germanic tribe to the east of the Frisians; were very civilized according to Tacitus and were being decribed almost like the OLB describes the Fryans; but they were also sea raiders and often hooked up with the Frisians; linguistic indications they went raiding and settling as far as Iberia ("Kaukaioi"); probably moved to Ireland too and were there the neighbours of the Menapii;

Parisi: a Celtic/Germanic (?) tribe living near the Seine; some say their name means Frisii; probably moved to Yorkshire, England. The Parisi in England had a different culture from the surrounding tribes (and in England their name is also explained as "of the wetlands, low pastures", "herdsmen", "commanders");

Belgae: a group of Celtic/Germanic (?) tribes living in present day Belgium and Northern France; probably they were the Fir Bolg of the Irish legends; the Parisi were probably one of them (??);

Taexali: a group of very probably Frisian settlers (lived near a bay in Scotland that was once called Frisian Bay); did they come from Texel (old name Texla) after the flood in 360 or 350 BC, a flood mentioned by the Frisian historiographer Schotanus? Same could be true for the aforementioned tribes. Some of their hillforts were called "Laws" (think OLB citadel on Texland; the etymology of Texla is based on a Germanic word for direction, "to the right". But 'right' has also another meaning aside from a direction...);

Firaesi: a tribe living in Scandia which was an island according to Ptolemy but was actually the southern part of Sweden:

The Firaesi (Latinization) or Phiraisoi (original Greek) are a people listed in Ptolemy’s Geography (2.10).

Ptolemy’s view of the region is not very precise, but he places them on the east side of what he believed to be an island, Scandia. The presence of the Goutai, or Goths, in the center, identifies Scandia fairly certainly as the southern portion of the Scandinavian peninsula. As to whether the east of it was the east coast of Sweden or the coast of Finland opposite, the latter is perhaps too remote for detailed knowledge by Ptolemy or his sources.

There is in fact a possible Germanic derivation of Phiraisoi. They are in the same region as the Favonae, who may have been residents of Småland. Old Norse and Old Icelandic firar, Old English firas, are fairly close to Firaesi and mean “men, human beings” or “Volk” in German. As it happens, Uppland was traditionally divived in Folkland, four provinces, which lost their jurisdictional importance in 1296.

Koebler’s Old Norse Etymological Database in the Indo-European Etymological Database online at Leiden University gives a Proto-Indo-European root of *perkwus, becoming Germanic *ferhwioz by Grimm's Law. The root meaning is “oak”, but the oak was regarded as a symbol of hardness, toughness and strength (see also Harudes).

With regard to people it means “life force” or especially “power”, in the sense of the collective power of the folk. It would be a descriptive epithet of the *teuta-, “tribe, people”. This connotation is probably not devoid of a military sense, as the root went into Hittite, a very early branch of Indo-European, as “army”. Uppland then would have been a densely populated and at the time fairly conservative remnant of Indo-European culture. If the Indo-European penetration of Europe can be regarded as a very slow invasion, its Schwerpunkt, or “heavy point”, came to rest in Uppland.

The Firaesi are not mentioned elsewhere in history, perhaps because of language changes and the preference of folk for firar. More information is undoubtedly to be gleaned from archaeology.

Firaesi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


According to accepted history, the Frisians originally came from the area of Denmark and Southern Sweden (around 1700 BC they went on the move). Does their name mean "men, folk, human beings, the people"? Also think about the Irish "Fir" which means the same...

Old Prussians: a Baltic tribe, aka "Aesti" according to Tactitus. Lived in an area near the "Friesisches Haff", Poland; spoke a language called "Pruteni" which was, again according to Tacitus, the same language as spoken in Brittain by the "Pretani". Now Google "Pruteni", and see where you end up, lol. Yes, Rutheni, Russ..

I once fabricated an original name for the Proto Frisians, "Phruisii", and suggested that from that name the others developed: Frisii, Fireasi, Prusi, Parisi (and there are those who'd like to add: Farsi or Parsi..).

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I should have added that County Ross in Scotland (Dun Ross?) incorporates the former territory of Ptolemy's "Teaxalï" tribe, a people very likely to have been Frisians according to some sources (their hillforts being called "Laws" / OLB Texland - laws written on the walls of the citadel).

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OK, I didn't really want to continue with this "Ross" thing, but I found something new, and whatever anyone may think of the OLB, it is interesting for Frisian history (I think I could write a book now about known and not so much known Frisian history, and it would be an impressive tome with facts and ideas and conjecture, all based on a period of time between about 300 BC (and earlier) to 1300 AD).

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This post will be about the "Fir Rois" of Ireland.

First an updated map I posted before (and notice the location of those Fir Rois in blue):




The next is a copy-and-paste fest, and I hope you will excuse me:



CRÍCH ROIS, THE LAND OF THE FIR ROIS

The Crích Rois, the territory of the Fir Rois, lay mostly in mid-Louth but extended into parts of Counties Monaghan and Meath, taking in (approximately) the parishes of Dromin, Kildemock and Smarmore in Co. Louth, Siddan (or Killary), Loughbrackan, Dromcondra and possibly Ardagh, in County Meath and (possibly) the parishes of Magheracloone, Killanny and Magheross in County Monaghan. By the time of the Norman invasion the lands outside County Louth had been lost and the territory consisted of what is now the Barony of Ardee.

Genealogy of Gairbhith mac Maeleitigh
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y225/Abramelinn/OLB/FRIEZEN_spread.jpg

==

The earliest reference to the Fir Rois, in AU. is at 827. and
to a king of them, at 851. Echu son of Cernach who was slain
by the Norsemen. They were plundered in 023. and their king
was slain by his brothers in 037.

The YBL text (col. 391—395) published in RC IX is the
oldest prose version of the story. It is most probably, as
Thurneysen concludes, based on the older poetical version already
referred to. It does not make the greater mistake which the
later prose versions do of stating that Donnchad son of Domnall
mac Aedha was king of Ireland, but rather that this Donnchad
became king of Cinél Conaill and Fiacha king by Fir Rois.

Full text of "Miscellany presented to Kuno Meyer by some of his friends and pupils on the occasion of his appointment to the chair of Celtic philology in the University of Berlin"
Miscellany presented to Kuno Meyer by some of his friends and pupils on the occasion of his appointment to the chair of Celtic philology in the University of Berlin : Bergin, Osborn, 1873-1950 : Free Download & Streaming : Internet Archive


This is a county steeped in myth, legend and history, going back to the pre-historic days of the Táin Bó Cúailnge (Cooley Cattle Raid, see Cú Chulainn). Later it saw the influence of the Vikings as seen in the name of Carlingford Lough. They also established a longphort at Annagassan in the ninth century. At this time Louth consisted of three sub-kingdoms each subject to separate over-kingdoms: Conaille (Ulaidh); Fir Rois (Airgialla); and, the Fir Arda Ciannachta (Midhe).

County Louth - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


The other chief clans of Monaghan were the MacKennas, chiefs of Truagh; the MacCabes; the MacNeneys, anglicised to Bird; the MacArdells; MacCassidys; O'Duffys, and O'Corrys; the O'Cosgras, MacCuskers or MacOscars, changed to Cosgraves, who possessed, according to O'Dugan, a territory called Fearra Rois, which comprised the district about Carrickmacross in Monaghan, with the parish of Clonkeen, adjoining, in the county of Louth; the Boylans of Dartree.

DNA of the Three Collas


Before concluding, I wish to allude very shortly to a people mentioned
in the traditionary history of Ireland, whom I believe to be the same with
these early Frisian pirates. They are called in Irish tradition the Fomorians, or Fomhoraidh, and appear throughout the whole traditionary history as a race of sea-pirates, occasionally infesting the coasts, and occasionally settling on its shores and subjugating its inhabitants.

They are called in these legends African pirates ; but the same name of Africans is attributed by Procopius, who has preserved Frisian and Saxon
traditions, to them. They are also called Lochlannaibh, which clearly
marks them out as being pirates from the north coast of Germany. An
early king is Bhreas, or the Frisian.

Their principal stronghold was on a small island called Tory Island, where they had a fort called Tur Conaing, after the name of a leader—Conaing, the Saxon for king. Their chief seat, this small island called after a leader, being nearly parallel to their chief seat in the Forth, likewise a small island called the city of Guidi, whom I believe to be no other than the Guitta, son of Guechta, of Nennius, and the Vitta, son of Vecta, of Bede, and who also appears in the Pictish Chronicle as Guidid Gadbrechach. The word Fo-mor means under the sea. The old Irish name for the low country lying east of the Ehine was Tirfothuinn, the land under the waves, from its being supposed to be lower than the sea; so was it also called Tirformor, the land under the sea, and its inhabitants Fomorians or Fomhoraigh.

They appear in intimate connection with the Cruthens or Picts. It
would take too long to quote the numerous passages which show this
traditionary connection between them, but it runs through the whole of
their traditionary .history; and I cannot help suspecting that they have
left their name in the parish in the county of Aberdeenshire termed
Foveran, as the Cruthens have in the neighbouring parish of Cruden.
The reason that I mention this traditionary people is that they were
the great builders of Cyclopean forts in Ireland.

The fortress of Aelech was of a circular form, built of large stones
well fitted together and of great strength, constructed in the style of
Cyclopean architecture. There are still considerable remains of the
stone fortress, and the wall varies from ten to fifteen feet in thickness, and is of immense strength. The circumference of this building was almost 100 yards, and it was surrounded by three great earthen ramparts.

If in these traditions of the Fomhoraigh there is preserved some recollections of these forerunners of the Saxons and Angles, those Frisians who under the generic name of Saxons first invested our coasts and made settlements on our shores, it is probable that we must attribute to them many of those stupendous hill forts which are to be found within no great distance from the eastern shore, and especially those which crown the summits of the hills termed "Laws," and probably many of the sepulchral remains; while it is not impossible that the Cat Stane, with its inscription of "In hoc turpulo jacet Vettafilius Victi," may commemorate by a Eoman hand the tomb of their first leader Vitta, son of Vecta, the traditionary grandfather of Hengist and Horsa.

http://ads.ahds.ac.uk/catalogue/adsdata/arch-352-1/dissemination/pdf/vol_004/4_169_181.pdf


Lochlan was the north of Germany, extending from
the Rhine to the Elbe, and the name of Lochlanach
was originally applied to the ancient traditionary pirates
termed the Fomorians. When the Norwegian and Dan-
ish pirates appeared in the ninth century, they were like-
wise called Lochlanach ; and the name of Lochlan was
transferred to Norway and Denmark, from whence they
came. There is every reason to believe that the Low
German race were preceded, in the more ancient Lochlan,
by a Celtic people.

Full text of "The Dean of Lismore's book : a selection of ancient Gaelic poetry from a manuscript collection made by Sir James M'Gregor, Dean of Lismore, in the beginning of the sixteenth century"

[Archived]Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood - Ancient Mysteries & Alternative History - Unexplained Mysteries Discussion Forums - Page 502


firas - men

Help you learn
Modern English to Old English Vocabulary


310
The legend in its present form contains some references of
historical interest, viz., an instance of the power of protection
or termonn of the saints and the peculiar reference to the
killing of their own kings by the Fir Rois and Mudhorn
Maighens a people who, as MacNeill points out, were of un-
known race.

Miscellany presented to Kuno Meyer by some of his friends and pupils on the occasion of his appointment to the chair of Celtic philology in the University of Berlin


Rus' people

(...)

Another theory is that the name comes from Rüstringen in Frisia (today in Lower Saxony, Germany), a land ruled by the Danish Viking Rorik of Dorestad, who was suggested to be the same as Rurik of Novgorod.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rus'_people

Rüstringen is also spelled as Rustringen and Riustringen (see Rolf Bremmer).

Rus' People >>> Fir Rus/Rius/Rois??

Don't forget: the -u- in the "Rustringen" variant of the name of that Frisian county is pronounced like English -oo- as in 'book'.

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So we have Chaucians, Frisians and Menapians showing up as neighbours on the south-eastern coasts of the North Sea, and then we have the Fir-Rois, Cauci and Menapi showing up as neighbours on the east coast of Ireland.

The Chaucians (a people portrayed by Tacitus as the OLB portrayed the Fryans) often hooked up with their neighbours the Frisians to raid the Atlantic coasts of Europe up to Iberia during Roman times (some think the Vikings got inspired by what the Frisians did, and it is known that Frisians and Vikings often 'worked' together) - and I start to think they were very closely related to these Frisians/Frisii - and then we have the southern neighbours of the Frisii, the Menapi, who spoke a language (according to a source quoted by Overwijn in his 1941 book about the OLB) closely related to the Old Frisian language.

I wish I wasn't as chaotic as I know I am. Someone could write a bestseller using the available info on Frisian history, even without using the OLB.

The Frisians still carry a name similar to what a 2000 years old source (Tacitus) called them: Frisii.

They settled all over Europe and Russia. A known fact.

They were very dominantly present during the crusades, and during some of these crusades Old Frisian was the lingua franca.

They dominated (or had a large influence on - either as merchants or as pirates -) the Hanze League ages later.

If we have to believe ancient sources (Martinus Hamconius, a Frisian historiographer, and Adam Von Bremen, a German monk) they may have discovered South America in the 10th century.


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Country of Fresen

It was one time Tadg was going his next heir's round, into the west of Munster, and his two brothers, Airnelach and Eoghan, along with him. And Cathmann, son of Tabarn, that was king of the beautiful country of Fresen that lay to the south-east of the Great Plain, was searching the sea for what he could find just at that time, and nine of his ships with him.

Gods and Fighting Men: Part I: Part I Book IV: Tadg in Manannan's Islands

Teigue, son of Cian, and heir to the kingship of West Munster, with his followers set out from Ireland to recover his wife and brethren who had been stolen by Cathmann and his band of sea-rovers from Fresen, a land near Spain.

CHAPTER VI

123
[Fresen, Islands of the Mod] (??)

Christine’s Faery List: Works Cited

Islands of Mod - islands from which Ogma was ordered by Bres to bring firing every day (32)

An Irish Myth Concordance D-L


While Cliodna was speaking with him, three bright- coloured birds settled on the great apple-tree : each of them ate an apple and sang such music as would put sick men into their sleep. Cliodna promised that these birds should escort Tadg home to Ireland. She also gave him a beautiful green cup of such virtue that water poured into it turned to wine. He was, however, always to keep it by him ; for, whenever it escaped from him, death would be near at hand. Tadg's companions thought that they had been only a day in the island ; but Cliodna told them that they had in reality been there a whole year. They would fain have stayed longer; but Tadg was still minded to seek for his own people. So they all set sail together and, looking back, found the island already hidden by a druid mist. They were down-hearted for a while, till the birds began to sing and guided them, wrapped in a deep sleep, to Fresen. Here Tadg recovered his people, rested awhile, and then returned in safety to Ireland.

Page:Folk-lore - A Quarterly Review. Volume 17, 1906.djvu/16 - Wikisource, the free online library


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As heir to a portion of Munster Tadhg made the rounds of his father’s kingdom, and happened to wander into Beiredo Bhunadas in the far west of that land when a Fomorian pirate named Cathmann surrounded his party and took his wife Liban and his two brothers as slaves. Tadhg managed to cut himself free of his enemies and afterwards ordered the building of a curragh suitable for a long ocean-voyage into the western islands. “Very strong it was and had forty ox-hides on of red leather that had been soaked in bark. It was fitted with masts, and oars and pitch, and everything that was wanting. And they put every sort of meat and drink and of clothes in it, that would last them through the length of a year. It is said that they sailed beyond sight of all land and then rowed westward through twenty days and nights and finally came “to high land having a smooth coast.”

Here, Tadhg and thirty of his men scouted the land but found vacant farms, wild sheep and a belligerent ram. Tadhg made a lucky cast of his spear and impaled and killed the animal. Afterwards “they found the bones of very big men on the island but did not know if they had died of sickness or were killed by the rams.” Leaving this island they sailed to two other islands where they noted birds, somewhat like blackbirds but the size of eagles “with red and greenheads.” Their nests contained eggs that were coloured blue and crimson, and when they ate some they were troubled by allergic skin reactions. The “foreigner” who was their pilot said that he had come this way before, but now the ships turned into unknown waters through which they passed for a period of six weeks. When the wind rose the voyagers said that its sound was like that of many tramping feet, “and it piles up in great mountains which were hard to climb.

”Finally, the curragh came into safer waters and
beached at a land where there was a beautiful inlet surrounded by green trees. It was said that the bottom of the estuary was of a glittering silvery sand. Two dozen explorers set out for the hinterland where they found fruiting apple trees, oak trees and hazels overburdened with nuts. Inland, they encountered three fortresses on hills overlooking a plain, and visited each in turn, where they encountered Gaelic heroes long dead.

They visited last with the mythic Clidona and remained as her guests for a year. Afterwards they departed for Ireland led by a company of magical birds which guided them into the Atlantic. As they sailed away the Dead Isles became veiled in “druidic mists" and they were plunged into a deep sleep which continued until they arrived at the Fomorian island of Fresen, which was ruled by their enemy, the king called Cathmann. After a hard fight Tadg liberated his wife and brothers and all returned safely to Ireland.

druidt


Fomori, Fomor Race of beautiful raiders, said to have come from beneath the waves. When they came onto land, they grew to a yard taller than a man and twice as broad.

Celtic Myth Podshow - Character Biographies (P-T)


"Altfriesisches Lesebuch mit Grammatik und Glossar" 1903 ( Old Frisian storybook with grammar and glossary)

"Fresen" is nothing but an old spelling of "Frisians"

Full text of "Altfriesisches Lesebuch mit Grammatik und Glossar"


It's kind of hard to locate this "Fresen", but maybe it was an area in Ireland called after the original homeland of these "Fresen", or Frisians.

Bhreas (Bres) was a king of the Fomorians, and according to a source in a former post his name meant "Frisian"
++++++++

To continue with the Friisian - Irish connection:

"English - Early Irish Wordlist"

Frisian = fresen

http://www.wales.ac.uk/Resources/Documents/Research/CelticLanguages/EnglishEarlyIrishWordList.pdf

fresen
o,m. a Frisian: np. Frainc Fresin Longbaird, Rawl. 116 b 40 = Frainc Frig Fresin ..., Ält. Ir. Dicht. i 31 . Freisin, Auraic. 224 ?. ap. Fresiona, Leb. Gab. i 236 . Frainc + Frési + Longbaird LL 29 a 16 . Cf. dp. fresib LU 8901 ( FB 68 ).

http://www.dil.ie/results-list.asp?mode=BAS&Fuzzy=0&lang=OIr&searchtext=%20fresen%20(Old%20Irish)&sortField=ID&sortDIR=65602&respage=0&resperpage=10&bhcp=1



1 breas
(a) fight, blow; effort
(b) uproar, din: breas
c) Metaph. of a hero, chief (or subst. use of 2 bres ?)
(d) beauty, worth

2 breas
Also bras. great, mighty

http://www.dil.ie/results-list.asp?mode=BAS&Fuzzy=0&lang=OIr&searchtext=%20breas%20(Old%20Irish)&sortField=ID&sortDIR=65602&respage=0&resperpage=10&bhcp=1
Irish Dictionary Online Translation LEXILOGOS >>

Fomor
land lying towards the sea ,' `shore-land ,'
giant or pirate

http://www.dil.ie/results-list.asp?mode=BAS&Fuzzy=0&lang=OIr&searchtext=%20fomor%20(Old%20Irish)&sortField=ID&sortDIR=65602&respage=0&resperpage=10&bhcp=1

"Bhreas" being translated as 'the Frisian' (see aerlier post).

Compare all that with 'land under the sea'.
Pirates, giants, land under the sea, shore-land...

At this moment the Dutch are one of the tallest people on earth, but the Frisians were seen as giants already many ages ago. They sailed the seas, were often pirates, and their 'shore-lands' regularly ended up 'under the sea'.

But one thing is off: the Fomorians were often described as dark, 'swarthy' while the Frisians were often described as 'blond giants'.

And that flood the Irish legends talk about... maybe that flood happened in much more recent times, and not during 'Biblical times' as the Irish monks wanted us to believe?


A bit more:


FRESEN, fris, OIr. frith, a wild mountainous place, a mythic island kingdom occupied by Fomorian pirates. Probably in memory of the Old Norse goddess Freya and/or her twin “brother” Freas, a god of the sun, war and agriculture.

Saidto lay “to the southeast of the Great Plain (of the Sea).”Cathmann raided Munster from this outpost in the Atlantic and carried away Liban the wife of Tadg mac Cian, the heir-apparent to that throne. Following in a hide-covered curragh the prince and his men spent many months at sea visiting Tir-nan-Og before completing the liberation of Liban and the people taken away with her. This lost island in the Atlantic may confer with Frisland, an island community often noted as being southwest of Iceland on maps from the great age of discovery.

The geographer to Queen Elizabeth I noted that his monarch had declared title to “Greenland,Estotiland and Friseland” in November of 1577. In the following year his diary notes that “King Arthur and King Maty, both of them did conquer Gelinda, lately called Friseland.” On a map issued in 1580, these notes are added: “Circa Anno 530 (A,D.) King Arthur not only Conquered Iseland, Groenland, and all the Northern Iles compassing unto Russia, but even unto the North Pole did extend his jurisdiction; and sent Colonies thither, and also unto all the isles between Scotland and Iseland, whereby it is possible that the last named Friseland Island is of the British ancient discovery and possession; and also seeing Groeland beyond Groenland did receive their inhabitants by Arthur, it is credible that the famous Iland Estotiland was by his jurisdiction; and sent Colonies thither, and also unto all the isles between Scotland and Iseland, whereby it is possible that the last named Friseland Island is of the British ancient discovery and possession; and also seeing Groeland beyond Groenland did receive their inhabitants by Arthur, itis credible that the famous Iland Estotiland was by hisfolks possessed.” This being the case, Fresen may confer with An Domhain which was traditionally located in this geographical location and was also said ravaged (and possibly settled) by King Arthur or his kin.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/2366782/druidf

Btw: that 'lost island' is most probably the still existing Faeröer islands. At around 1000-1400 AD Frisians had settled in the southern tip of the archipelago (Akraberg), and practiced piracy (and were finally whiped out by the Black Plague). No doubt they will have called that part of the Faeröer islands "Friesland", after their homeland. Just like "Normandy" in France was named "Normandy", after the 'Northmen'.

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Ireland's mysterious lands and sunken cities - Legends and Folklore
Jon Douglas Singer



Ireland's Mysterious Lands and Sunken Cities

(Remember : one source said that Lochlan was nothing else but the lowlands of N/W Germany, Denmark, and the Netherlands. It only later became the name for the land where the Vikings came from.)


This is what Maccullough really says:

The idea of a world under the waters is common to many mythologies, and, generally speaking, it originated in the animistic belief that every part of nature has its indwelling spirits. Hence the spirits or gods of the waters were thought of as dwelling below the waters. Tales of supernatural beings appearing out of the waters, the custom of throwing offerings therein, the belief that human beings were carried below the surface or could live in the region beneath the waves, are all connected with this animistic idea. Among the Celts this water-world assumed many aspects of Elysium, and it has names in common with it, e.g. it is called Mag Mell.

Hence in many popular tales it is hardly differentiated from the island Elysium; oversea and under-waves are often synonymous. Hence, too, the belief that such water-worlds as I-Bresail, or Welsh fairy-lands, or sunken cities off the Breton coast, rise periodically to the surface, and would remain there permanently, like an island Elysium, if some mortal would fulfil certain conditions.

The Celtic belief in Tír fa Tonn is closely connected with the current belief in submerged towns or lands, found in greatest detail on the Breton coast. Here there are many such legends, but most prominent are those which tell how the town of Is was submerged because of the wickedness of its people, or of Dahut, its king's daughter, who sometimes still seeks the love of mortals. It is occasionally seen below the waves or even on their surface.

Elsewhere in Celtic regions similar legends are found, and the submersion is the result of a curse, of the breaking of a tabu, or of neglect to cover a sacred well. 2 Probably the tradition of actual cataclysms or inroads of the sea, such as the Celts encountered on the coasts of Holland, may account for some of these legends, which then mingled with myths of the divine water-world.

http://www.usa-anti-communist.net/Witchcraft_Historical/Religion_of_the_Ancient_Celts_1911_MacCullochJA.pdf


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230:2 Ancient Laws of Ireland, i. 23. In one MS. Adam is said to have been created thus--his body of earth, his blood of the sea, his face of the sun, his breath of the wind, etc. This is also found in a Frisian tale (Vigfusson-Powell, Corpus Poet. Bor. i. 479), and both stories present an inversion of well-known myths about the creation of the universe from the members of a giant.

http://www.usa-anti-communist.net/Witchcraft_Historical/Religion_of_the_Ancient_Celts_1911_MacCullochJA.pdf


==

So Menapians, Chauci, Frisians (as Fir Rois? Fresen?) all ended up in Ireland, three closely related tribes. Maybe resettling in this new land after their homeland got flooded (4th century BC). And in Ireland they again became neighbours.

And if we have to believe the legends, the Frisians were in Ireland many ages before that, as the Fomorians.


So, let's say, the ancient Irish knew of the Frisians, but did anyone ever read one word about Ireland in the OLB?

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The Book of Conquests allows that the Tuatha were descended from Japhet, though in some way demons; or, in Christian language, heathen deities. One Irish word was often applied to them, viz. Liabra, or phantoms. It is believed that at least one Tuath warrior, named Breas, could speak in native Irish to the aboriginal Firbolgs.

Part II. Early Religions Of The Irish: Irish Magic, and Tuatha De Danaans

Actually it is said Sreng and Breas could understand eachother. That's all as far as I know.

celtic legend | Tumblr

Breas is seen as a king of the Fomorians (or became their king after he married one of their princesses). So he could talk with the Fir Bolg. Would that mean that the Fomorians and the Fir Bolg were once neighbours in another country? Like the Frisii and the Belgae?? Both speaking closely related languages?

+++++++

The Singer guy tries to make writers who merely mention that the "Land under the waves" could have been the sunken part of the Netherlands look ridiculous.

Well, I not only found Maccullough's book, but also Brown's book:

Iwain; a study in the origins of Arthurian romance (1903)
Author: Brown, Arthur Charles Lewis

Iwain; a study in the origins of Arthurian romance : Brown, Arthur Charles Lewis : Free Download & Streaming : Internet Archive

(and enter "Holland" in the search window of the online version of the book)


I don't see why this Singer is so agitated about it: these other writers merely mention it in a few words, like "Some say ...".

And it doesn't seem too far fetched to assume tribes living at the ancient coasts of Belgium, the Netherlands and N/W Germany fled to Ireland after their country got flooded (I suggest it's the flood in the 4th century BC, but there have been many more and also much more ancient ones).

However, it seems to be a kind of accepted idea; look at how someone translated an Irish poem:

D'aithneoinn do ghlór as seo go Tír-fo-Thoinn
Is sheasfainn sa tsneachta is tú ag gabháil fhoinn go binn
Éist, a stór, tá ceol ar an ngaoth
Is casfar le chéile sinn roimh dhul faoi don ghrian.

I’d know your voice from here to the land beneath the waves, *
and would stand in the snow while you sang a tune sweetly.
Listen, o darling, there’s music on the wind,
And we will meet before the going down of the sun.
[* poetic name for the Netherlands]



http://www.irishgaelictranslator.com/translation/topic90160.html

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